Forums / Cotonti / Development / The problem of Themes

Round table about themes for Cotonti Siena

Trustmaster
#1 2011-12-01 16:57

The current poll on index shows that the main thing Cotonti users wonder about is how to create themes for Cotonti. The documents we have so far are either very general or very specific.

In the meantime if you enter Themes in Download section, just about 20 themes for Genoa, some of which are not available anymore.

These 2 facts demonstrate that Cotonti needs some tutorials in theme making and more free themes for Siena.

I would like to gather a kind of round table here to discuss the problem of Themes here and find possible solutions.

Personally I'm doing my best to add more articles on extension development, but I am not a theme creator, so the only valuable article I can make about themes is a good reference of supported CoTemplate syntax (I feel we need it right after 0.9.6 which adds long-awaited FOR constructs).

I have an idea to sponsor a contest of tutorials in theme making. We had a skin contest once and that was quite successful, but I don't think it is time to run such a contest again now.

May the Source be with you!
Kingsley
#2 2011-12-01 17:56

Agreed. the Nemesis skin of Sienna isn't up to date at all. Seeing I always use the default skin as a base, it prevents me from switching to Sienna. Is simple as that.

I know you guys are against it, but I would really love the return of the tags repository.

Thx to a few tips from Kort I've got better in building themes, and wouldn't mind to create a few for you guys, coz you helped me out over the years, but again, a solid base to start from would be very, very nice..

Twiebie
#3 2011-12-01 18:54
#31756 Kingsley: 

I know you guys are against it, but I would really love the return of the tags repository.

You can easily get a list of tags with tpl_debug=1 when you have $cfg['debug_mode'] = TRUE; in config.php.

Kingsley
#4 2011-12-02 00:18

I know.. but a tags repositiry is much cleaner and clearer to work with, and a good place to start for new comers to the Cotonti.

But hey, who am I to agrue for user friendlyness...

Trustmaster
#5 2011-12-02 13:37

TPL tags database takes lots of human hours to maintain, we had a database with a few releases supported and nobody actually filled tag descriptions. It also wasn't aware of blocks. That's why we developed this tpl_debug feature instead.

May the Source be with you!
Kingsley
#6 2011-12-02 19:47

No offence, Trust really, but this is the way I see it:

I feel cotonti slowly is grinding to a halt when it comes to new members joining your community. I visit this site on a daily basis (it's part of my 'internet round') and see so few newcomers.
On the other hand I see you guys being all geeky and design the shit out of cotonti (which is a compliment, and of-course a good thing). But on the other side the system gets more difficult to understand.
By being more open about the basics, you're most likely to attract more people that want to give Cotonti a go. Correct me if I'm wrong, but more people means more options for use made plugins, themes/skins, more contributions to the community itself,  etc. and in the long run more money for you guys.

Gonna say it again, I love Cotonti, the way it works, and the neet little tricks you can do with it. Tried all the other, liked not of them. But nevertheless I feel there's more to get when it comes to community involvement. Oke, you now have a few really dedicated people walking around, but you have to realize that they may not always be around, for whatever reason.

I know that with my knowledge I'm not a real use for you guys, but that doesn't mean I can't help out. I've offered to do so in the past, but nobody ever asked me to do so.
If you need some-one to keep track of such a thing as a tags repository, just ask dude. You give me the (raw) data, I will maintain the list. It's as simple as that. All you have to do is ask. And Im sure there are more out there, with my level of (html/css) knowledge who want to  help out, at least I hope so.

This tpl_debug feature is cool and all but it doesn't explain what is does, nor where it's applicable. And may even scare people away.

I talked to twiebie about you guys the other day.. In our eyes you guys are hardcore programmers (incl. the almost mandatory little quirks). And that's not a bad thing, but I (we) also feel that it prevents you in some way to set up a good community.. That's where others can help out.

I do hope that last sentense isn't regarded as an insult, coz it's not. It's just an objective assassment.

Just my 2 cents..

 

Have a good one this weekend!
 

Twiebie
#7 2011-12-02 21:10

I have to agree with Kingsley for the most part - Cotonti isn't an easy CMF to get in to when you haven't got a PHP background and it might have a learning curve that is a bit steep for a lot of people. Some nice themes for Siena, and some more information would be a very good thing to add.

I'm just starting to get in to writing my own plugins, but i'm far from writing decent PHP code.
I can on the other hand help out with themes for Siena, as I had to go through the Genoa to Siena conversion process myself.
If we can be a bit more specific on what is needed the most at the moment i'm always willing to help out.

Also, I can really recommend to everybody to keep checking GitHub/Cotonti, it's the easiest way to keep track of things. This prevents you from being overwhelmed by the changes when an update comes out, and it gives you a better insight on how Cotonti works, even if you haven't got a coding brain like some of the devs here.

GHengeveld
#8 2011-12-02 22:28

Thanks for the clear and constructive criticism guys, it's really appreciated. The community issue with Cotonti has been on our radar for a while and is really starting to become a major thing. We have realised that our aim for a more 'professional' audience isn't really the right way to go. The development of Siena has been mostly focussed towards making such 'high-end' users happy, by introducing a lot of complex (and very powerful) features. I think it's time to focus on the actual end-user again, which doesn't necessarily have programming knowledge. This means writing good documentation, but also making installation, configuration and maintenance easy for everyone.

As for the tags repository, it's part of the documentation. Personally I simply lookup a tag in the PHP code itself if I need to know about it, but obviously that's not for everyone. When I was a novice coder (back in the LDU/Seditio days) I remember really liking the tags repositiry. I think it's a crucial feature for many developers, so I also think we should introduce it again. However, it will need to be actively maintained and structured somehow. Perhaps we'll need a dedicated module for it in which you can store info such as blocks and descriptions.

Dyllon
#9 2011-12-03 04:32

A tags repository could certainly spark the creation of more themes, but the underlying problem is attracting those theme developers to Cotonti. This project is full of new and exciting features once you dive in, but the average web developer doesn't want to cater to a non-existent community. By releasing quality themes/extensions for Siena we could drive more people to use Cotonti; meanwhile attract more willing developers.

We truly need our communities capable template designers to lend a helping hand, and create some quality free themes.

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit.
GHengeveld
#10 2011-12-03 10:52

I'm willing to make a template if someone can provide me with a good design. I'm fine with doing html/css and templating but actually designing something in photoshop is the hard part for me because I always lack inspiration. So if you send me a design I will create a new template.

Kingsley
#11 2011-12-03 12:22

@ Ghengeveld

Maybe a better idea. if you guys create a template, with the wanted basics needs for a skin, and then I do not mean a default skin (nemesis isn't up to date, so we tackle that problem here too) which is packed with cotonti. simply the minimum of things you think a skin needs to function on cotonti. Then people like me can start on creating themes.

This way you guys can focus on the php stuff, and then you only have to check new themes and judge if they are good enough. Saves you time, right..?

Trustmaster
#12 2011-12-04 12:19

Thanks for constructive feedback, guys.

Maybe we can relaunch the TPL tags repository based on tpl_debug mode or some other way. Like tpl_debug, but more user friendly and with user-contributed descriptions. There are 2 ways we can provide descriptions for blocks and tags:

  1. Maintain TPL Tags repository online, just like we did for Genoa.
  2. Embed descriptions in code and generate tags reference like we generate code reference. And/or provide tpl_debug with descriptions for blocks and tags.
May the Source be with you!
lukgoh
#13 2011-12-13 15:37

I am all for the TPL Tags reporsitory, there is no doubt it will help with not only theme creation but also the ideas behind them, if the designer knows exactly what he has to work with.

 

I am currently working on a few theme ideas from scratch I was going to give to the community. I'm still a little way off from some examples but I will post them up as soon as I am ready.

Added 5 days later:

Here is one I am currently developing.

 

rapture_1089.png

Added 20 minutes later:

rapturebottom_1089.png

Dit bericht is bewerkt door lukgoh (2011-12-18 18:55, 12 jaren ago)
Twiebie
#14 2011-12-18 21:58

Looks nice, lukgoh :)

I'm working on a theme or two for Siena aswell.

lukgoh
#15 2011-12-18 22:23

Thank you Twiebie, its exactly what the community needs.